EP 102 - Edited
===
[00:00:00] Has anyone ever had one of those moments where you've walked into a room or you've bumped into someone, uh, and they've introduced them to you, and you know them, and you know their name, but for the life of you you can't get it off the tip of your tongue? Maybe sometimes called brain fog. If this sounds a little bit like you and you're in leadership, you're gonna wanna tune in to today's episode
My guest today is Karen Stein. She spent 24 years in professional services and made partner at Deloitte, so she knows exactly what those rooms ask of you.
She now coaches executives and leaders to help navigate midlife, menopause, leadership transitions in the changing world of work. She's an executive coach, a certified menapause coach, international keynote speaker, and award-winning author. I am absolutely thrilled to be able to have Karen on the show today.
I really asked Karen to be here and be part of this because I keep [00:01:00] bumping into these conversations where peri- menopause or menopause in the work environment is impacting so many. And all those rooms where you felt completely confident, you knew exactly what you were doing, suddenly in a split moment you start second-guessing yourself
And today we're gonna cover off a whole lot of those questions and more. So let's get into it Welcome to the Style and Strategy Podcast, where leadership meets personal brand and style. I'm Sonya. I'm bringing you practical strategies, bold insights, and honest conversations to help you amplify your presence, unlock your next level, and lead with clarity and confidence
Sonya: Welcome back everyone to the Style and Strategy podcast. So today I've got
Karen Stein
Sonya: in the room with me, and I am so excited to really just [00:02:00] dive in and ask all the questions that I've been wanting to ask on behalf of so many of my listeners. And I know so many of you are in, uh, sort of that mid-life and, a few before that, even just wondering and having lots of questions about how you're tackling things, at work.
So why don't we get into it? Karen, thank you so much for, uh, being on the show with me.
Karen Stein: Oh, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here too
Sonya: . Look, so, you know, when I look at your career history, like your path to actually getting to this particular space here, you know, you spent, I think it's... I had 24, but I think you've said, is it 29? Yeah.
Karen Stein: 29 years. Yeah, 24 years as a partner of Deloitte, but 29
Sonya: Yeah, so 24 years as a partner, and then you were coaching executives in that firm, and then around midlife and how you actually lead and, show up around midlife. So tell me a [00:03:00] little bit more around how, how did you bounce into that arena?
Karen Stein: well, look, I was, I was really fortunate. So I'd been a, a tax partner for some 16 years, and some people might say, why am I saying that's fortunate? It wasn't the normal kind of corporate dry tax. It was research and development incentives and grants. So I was always out at my clients' premises, on school excursions, going underground in coal mines, and going into biscuit factories, and helping them identify what were the technical issues that they wanted research and development funding for.
So it was a lot of fun. And I was given a coach during that part of my career towards an executive role, and I hadn't had a coach before, and I fell in love with the process of coaching. And so much so that I went and studied a Master's of Science in Coaching Psychology part-time, and suggested to the CEO that I actually leave tax and step into the executive development team and start coaching women partners of Deloitte Australia. So, um, they were good enough to allow for that to happen. And, and so in [00:04:00] 2016, I rolled out this program, and each year I'd coach between 80 and 100 women partners, and it just started to grow. And during this time, I started to hear different conversation. Of course, many of the conversation were about where they were at in their careers, what they were juggling, some of the, the issues around KPIs, stakeholder management, a whole range of issues typical to professional services. After a while, I started to hear different conversations, and it was at that time too that I started to notice things about myself. I was also beginning to notice that there were some changes that were causing me reason to think maybe I need to be in conversation with someone. And, and I had never heard of perimenopause before, and I was getting quite, I guess, puzzled, maybe a little bit worried or anxious about some of the symptoms that I was experiencing, um, which were causing me a bit of distress.
So, and literally, um, I was becoming quite emotional. I'd find myself driving into work and the tears would flow, and I'd pull myself together and perform as I needed to. And, and like [00:05:00] clockwork, when I got back in that car, the tears would come again. And I couldn't put it down to anything 'cause home life was great, work life was great. It was quite confusing. And then I started to notice other symptoms, things like my hair started to thin. I was having significant leg cramps during the night, so my sleeping was really disrupted. And during the day, well, I, I called it I was running hot. I started having hot flushes, so I guess my temperature was changing, and again, didn't know why.
And my blood pressure changed. So I'd always prided myself on having really stable blood pressure, even through, you know, a very heavy and at times stressful career, and even with raising our two sons with my husband. and then suddenly I started to have these spikes, and they thought maybe there's something happening with my heart.
So they sent me off to a cardiologist, and I did stress tests and learnt everything was fine. So it was all very confusing The doctors had run lots of tests. There'd been blood tests and other types of things happening, but nobody had actually said to me, "Maybe you're going through a life stage called [00:06:00] perimenopause." It was through my own research that I discovered this, and I thought I was pretty educated. You know, I had enough people around me that I thought surely somebody else would've spoken of this helped me through it, but no one had. And I thought if that's what's happening for me, what's happening for other women in the workforce?
Why are the conversations coming into the coaching room starting to talk about their capacity to act or their confidence dropping or things like that? So it was really through both my own life experience and noticing the conversations of other women of mid age, so about ages 40 to 60, that started to get me interested in this field of work.
Sonya: Wow. Like, just even hearing that journey, I've got actually, chills up my arm. Because that's the thing, right? It, it's, it's these little tiny moments that suddenly leads to a point of which you just second-guessing yourself along that journey.
Karen Stein: Yeah
Sonya: your focus and, and what I really, [00:07:00] value is the fact that you're really looking at it from the lens of work and being at work in, in that environment.
Karen Stein: No, I was just gonna say it's very organisationally focused. So what, what I've tried to do is, with my understanding, having been a leader for a very long time and worked in organisations and with organisations, I could understand the systemic issues that were at play around how do we function and
Sonya: Mm-hmm.
Karen Stein: all of these moving parts and all of these demands and with, you know, the different types of conversations that might be happening or might not be happening.
And so really looking at, at it
Sonya: Mm-hmm.
Karen Stein: a systems point of view, and then drawing on positive psychology to also try and help us to say, "And, and how do we flourish through this time
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: How do we actually alter the way we think, feel, and function in a way that supports us so we're not, you know, falling into a space of presenteeism and just kind of still wanting to be there, but not performing at, as our best or better self?"
And so it was that combination which has really, led me to do the work that I
Sonya: Yeah.
Karen Stein: today with organisations.
Sonya: Love [00:08:00] that, it impacts like their whole system, whether that's in the workplace, organisationally or, and then they're taking it home and dealing with that personally. I thinkyou gave me a very, visual image of that getting into the car and then silently crying.
So what do you think it really costs the executives, the senior women in leadership to really handle menopause silently at work, whether it's perimenopause or not?
Karen Stein: I think it costs them opportunity and it costs them pleasure in being able to have the careers they wanna
Sonya: have.
Karen Stein: And so when they're handling it silently, there's a tendency to be masking symptoms. It's a nervousness or an anxiety that people might just find out, and what will that mean for me? And so it's this kind of murmur that's happening for them about, well, what if?
What, will people think less of me? It brings in the imposter syndrome. It starts to diminish their confidence. Their engagement starts to alter somewhat, and we, we've seen many a case where people start to pull back. They're not using their voice as often because they're not trusting in the reliability of the sharpness of their thinking.
Maybe they've got a bit of brain [00:09:00] fog or they're overtired, or they're just not, able to recall the details as quickly as they used to. So when they start to reduce their participation, then it's taking away opportunities. They're not necessarily going to be championed towards the next role because people aren't hearing from
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: And it's not that they've lost their capability, it's just that they've lost their capacity to act in that moment. So if they're experiencing symptoms, of which many women do, so the, studies tell us that about 80% of women, and, and keep in mind, all women will go through perimenopause, and some non-binary and some transgendered persons. In that cluster, we have 80% of them will experience symptoms, and 60% will be bothersome, irking symptoms. Symptoms that get in the way of how they think, feel, and
Sonya: function.
Karen Stein: The last 20% it's gonna be quite life-changing for them, have a, a huge impact. So if we focus on that
Sonya: 60%
Karen Stein: for the moment, if they're just impacted by how they're showing up, how they're thinking about things, and they're doing it silently, it's a huge [00:10:00] burden and it's pulling them back.
You know, some, people have, have expressed to me in some group coaching that they've relinquished the senior roles that they have. So the leadership gap, which we kind of see sitting here, if we marry it with the variables of perimenopause, it sits at about the same time in their career and at, as the age bracket of what we're looking at. We really need to address the two together
Sonya: I think when you've highlighted from that particular statistic getting impacted, around this, and then together with the gap that then that creates. Because you know, having experienced some symptoms myself, it's like one of those elements where you do just really wanna pull back because you do question yourself and say, "Well, hang on.
I was really good at this before," or, "I could remember, that before." So, uh, you end up second-guessing.
Karen Stein: There is a portion in the work that I do. I do, a program called Peri Pathways, which is group coaching in organisations, small groups, uh, of women coming
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: Many of them will talk about their reluctance to talk about it.
Sonya: And so I think that leads on to [00:11:00] my kind of next, question is, so how would someone raise it without becoming her story, right? That people go, "Oh, that's Jude over there, you know, A, B, C." and what is it that most senior people in that room really need to understand about it?
Karen Stein: They raise it will really depend on the culture of the organisation. And so what's really interesting about when we talk about menopause in the workplace, we're not just talking about menopause. What we're doing is finding that menopause reveals so much more about organisations. Because if we can talk safely about menopause, it's telling us we probably can talk safely about a whole lot of other issues that would affect us in our lives, whether it's, uh, mental wellbeing, whether it's relationship breakdowns, moving interstate, whatever it might be that's causing us any stress, anxiety, worry, concern. So the first thing it's gonna tell us is what's the culture like in the organisation. And if it's a culture where people feel psychologically safe to engage in a conversation, [00:12:00] then they're going to be able to seek support or seek help or describe what their needs might be. And I'm always asking people to stand in the shoes of the people that you're speaking with because someone in the organisation may too have never heard about menopause and perimenopause. And so if we have an expectation that they will solve for this, you know, "Here I am, I've got these symptoms. If you want me to work here, you need to sort this out for me in the workplace," it puts a huge burden on them. we're able to use some empathy and compassion and say to them, "Look, you might not have had conversations about this before.
This might be a first off. Perhaps I can share with you what I'm experiencing and talk to you about what my preferred needs might be in relation to helping to support me. Could we then talk about what's possible?" that can really open up a conversation where there's give and take.
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: it's a tricky thing and look, for some people, they're lucky they have a champion or they have an advocate or they have just a strong relationship with somebody who either is experiencing it themselves. See, this is what happens with menopause. You can't get the words [00:13:00] out. Um, they might have experienced it. They might have a partner who's experiencing it, and therefore they kind of can take note, and they have, you know, a bit more of empathy
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: But you might have people who've not, and so we need to address, you know, understand who am I speaking with?
How do I help inform them as to what my circumstances are and what I'm asking of them? And come with a solution-focused
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: If I can talk to somebody say, "Look, I'm getting really, really hot during the day. What would suit me best is perhaps if, um, if I was able to buy one of these, um, pick it up on Amazon, $25, and put it through as a charge for it, would that be
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: That's going to potentially help them to understand what, what were you after? What did you want from me? Or if I wanna work from home, maybe I can talk about the flexible work practices we have because I'm cramping or having heavy flows and would feel just a bit more comfortable being close to my own facilities and bathrooms, and so on.
Sonya: Yeah. And so for the women, uh, you've done through your group [00:14:00] coaching as well as, individually, I'm gonna describe it as success, right? In getting an outcome that leads to a more positive wellbeing in the workplace for them, that they're getting that outcome from, their organisations?
Karen Stein: Yeah, I'd say, and keep in mind, I wouldn't say that there's a wealth
Sonya: of organisations
Karen Stein: who, are yet, and yet is an important word, working through this in their workplace. I think we have a smallish number who are addressing this in the workplace. So there's great opportunity and potential to better your workforce by addressing this. The one's who are, it's improving for the women because of a number of reasons. Where they're having group coaching, it's increasing their level of connectedness and relatedness with other women, other like-minded folk who are going through this stage of life, with whom they can, you know, share their experience, their issues, their concerns, their challenges, and solve together.
Sonya: Hear
Karen Stein: from other people's experience and take note. the ones who are then going and having conversations, the greater number of them come [00:15:00] away with some kind of positive outcome. There will be situations where it doesn't work out that way, and again, that comes back to the culture that they're working within, or it might come back to the individual they're speaking
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: Perhaps the quality of the conversation wasn't as good as it could be. Perhaps they personally hadn't expressed their needs as clearly as they could have. Um, perhaps they feel like they were fobbed off, but maybe it was just a question of embarrassment or awkwardness from the person they spoke to as opposed to not wanting to support. So we need to kind of unpack each of these conversations to work out what's going on
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: and, and how can I contribute in a positive way and make some choices for me that will support me in this life stage, but also help the people around me support me as best I
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: Um, and appreciate sometimes they won't be able to accommodate every need that I have, and that's okay.
But if we can work on some of the ones that are perhaps more impactful, more important, that might be a win-win for us both
Sonya: Yeah. Love that. Yeah, at least it [00:16:00] empowers them to kind of take control of the narrative and try to find that outcome for themselves, rather than, as you said earlier, having to really feel like they've gotta hide behind something or sort of negative light in terms of the workplace.
I know,
through conversations previously, um, you had, uh, started actually doing some work around, and I believe from memory it was, you described it as MAD. and because most of the time we, when we talk about perimenopause, menopause, et cetera, it's very much focused on, okay, we're gonna get the females in the room together and have this conversation.
But what I, I really loved, uh, about some of the conversations we'd had earlier was that you were, you were coming at it, again, from an organisational perspective, but very much going also, look, there's lots of male leaders out there, there's lots of, males who their partners are going through it.
And, I think it was you'd done a few programs or you were, you have a particular program in that space. So do you wanna talk a little bit more, where that, how that [00:17:00] came to
Karen Stein: sure.
Sonya: be
Karen Stein: so MAD is not about being angry, although some people will say that emotions can increase or rise unexpectedly during perimenopause. MAD is about making a difference, and my programs are MAD about menopause, making a difference at work. And I have a particular program where men are MAD about menopause, so men are making a difference about menopause in the workplace. the reason is exactly as you said, it's, it's, um, not something that we're experiencing in isolation. So we- we're working with lots of men. We're living, in many cases, with lots of men. We have, um, siblings, we have friends who are men. For them to also understand what's going on for women is really important in society. And so if we can help educate men, they're going to be much more comfortable with being in conversation and thinking about how they might be able to contribute towards other people's wellbeing, which is an important part of life, and it shows kindness and compassion in doing so. reason why, um, I think it's helpful to have men in a room together is menopause is not something that we've [00:18:00] spoken about, in our education system.
It's not something we went to school and learnt about it when we did sex ed. It just didn't come up. When we went to uni, we probably didn't talk about it, and it's unlikely when we sat around the table with our mums and grandmas that we spoke about it. So for many people, it's a topic which causes a little bit of awkwardness.
You know, there's, a lot of unknowns. It could be a little embarrassing. and so the kinds of comments which they might make, whether it's using humor, or putting things in question, might not sit well with people who are going through it
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: And so in these, workshops, they're really focused on how best to understand and build their awareness of what actually menopause is, the different stages, perimenopause, menopause being one day in time, and then post-menopause.
Just help them with the, I guess, the language around that
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: Share with them some of the symptoms, but importantly, help them with communication strategies. So helping them understand what would be a helpful communication or a helpful conversation to have, as opposed to one where maybe you're trying to diagnose [00:19:00] or advise people that they should probably see a doctor because your emotions must be menopausal or telling them that they're probably coming to the end of their career because you've hit menopause?
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: So how can we help them understand some things which to other people might be obvious, but perhaps not to them because they haven't had a need to be in that conversation? And the nice thing is when we do some role playing and, and go through things, the penny drops very, very quickly because these are conversations that you would have about any other topic related to people. And so if we can structure these conversations, although the terminology might be slightly different or the needs might be slightly different, it's really no different to any other conversation around employee wellbeing. And you would hope that leaders are well equipped to have those conversations in a, in a safe way where they create psychological safety to, to listen and to participate and to ask questions and to show some vulnerability that maybe they just don't have all the
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: and typically, they leave these workshops feeling much more empowered, but the best thing [00:20:00] is they can go home and have these conversations with important people in their lives and work on those relationships which may have been impacted by assumptions they were holding. And it's really about unpacking those assumptions and informing them and educating them so that they can be, much, much more able and equipped to manage this life stage.
Sonya: Yeah. I think, it's such important work, and I love that you're actually balancing it out and being able to bring, um, them all together to have those conversation and bring that shared, experience to life. So what do you think's been some of the most insightful, um, I guess, or insights you've heard through those, sessions that you've run?
Karen Stein: Oh, well, from a male perspective, the insights that I think are really important are the ones that have impacted their relationships, their personal relationships. So in some cases, a male partner may have, been, observing their partner going through perimenopause, going through symptoms, but having no awareness of what they were experiencing or what, what this actually was. And so they've [00:21:00] taken things quite personally.
Sonya: Hmm
" You're yelling at me all the time." "You don't like me." "You've suddenly become really intolerant with me." "You're not attracted to me." "There's no more intimacy. You must be attracted to other people." So it has put some fractures in
some relationships
Karen Stein: until they start to hear what this is about, and it gives them opportunity to see, well, are we able to repair? Are we able to, to work on this or to have some, some conversations which at first might feel a little uneasy, but work our way through this and maybe seek some help and support in a more structured way to allow us to have longevity in our relationships? So that's been
hugely insightful.
In terms of hearing that.
And I often say when I do keynote speaking, it's often the men who remain behind at the end who want to have a
Sonya: Yeah, yeah.
Karen Stein: to talk about what's happening.
Sonya: Love that
Karen Stein: many women too really love the opportunity to talk about it, and that's also been really insightful, that the more we bring women together to give them opportunities to hear from other women and talk about their experience and share things that have [00:22:00] worked or, or give referrals to, to doctors who've been, you know, helpful, useful, well-informed women's health professionals or other things that they may have done to alleviate some symptoms, the better people feel.
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: lifts up their engagement and their confidence and gives them clarity and, and I think that's something that tends to get overlooked in organisations because people wonder, do we have to talk about this?
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: we don't have to, but would it be of benefit to provide a safe space to do so? Absolutely. And you'll see the difference in positivity and hope and optimism that will come when you provide this in a workspace. It, it really makes a
Sonya: So let's talk about, there's a couple of symptoms, that especially can really impact in the way that you show up at work, and I think one of them is, uh, I guess I'm gonna call it brain fog in the boardroom.
Karen Stein: Yeah.
Sonya: and then maybe it's even a hot flush in mid-presentation. And I know, a colleague from years ago had said to [00:23:00] me when she was experiencing the hot flush, she was, uh, very fair and, and her entire neck and face would go all red to the point that she just stopped.
Any time someone wanted her to present, she just completely pulled back, which exactly, um, sort of relays some of the earlier information you'd provided. So what are some of your suggestions around what a leader can actually do in the moment when this is kind of happening?
Karen Stein: It can take you by surprise. The thing about symptoms is they're typically unexpected, and they're irregular, and they show up at the worst of times. And What you've described are things that I've actually experienced. I've experienced brain fog during presentations, I've experienced hot flushes during the same very important presentations. And truly, the hot flashes, literally you feel the change in body temperature radiating through your neck, through your face, through your head. you sweat profusely. I tend to go very red in the face as well, so it's very obvious. and it can be a little embarrassing, you know, grabbing a tissue to kind of mop myself dry as I'm talking to people and [00:24:00] pretend there's nothing happening here. sometimes different people respond differently
Sonya: to it
Karen Stein: people prefer just to let it go and not reference it. Um, I'm inclined more to say, "Oh, look, I'm just having a hot flush," and then usually people are pretty responsive to it. They've heard of the term, or they just let it go if they don't know what it is. I do say what it is because sometimes it can be mistaken for anxiety.
So if people suddenly see that I'm looking
like, very flustered and awkward, they might think, "Oh, she's suddenly very anxious. She's very nervous. What's going on there?" And so I'd rather they understood that I'm having a hot flush, which is a change in, my body temperature as, as a result of hormonal changes, than I'm anxious about what I'm talking about.
So
that's a personal preference
for me. as for the brain fog, it's interesting too because it tends to be, again, due to hormonal fluctuations that,the messages in the brain are affected. The executive functioning of the brain is impacted by the, the hormonal changes, particularly a change in estrogen. And so it might be that the [00:25:00] words are on the tip of your tongue, but you just can't get them there. Or people's names, names of people you've known for forever, suddenly... And I'm terrible with
Sonya: names.
Karen Stein: I seem to lose people's names, and it can be a little bit awkward. And again, it's something that I use a little bit of, of light humor.
I don't laugh at me to mock myself, but it might just actually say, "Oh gosh, I'm going through a life stage." Not as sharp as I was yesterday. Can you remind me? Or I'm experiencing a bit of brain fog. But I also use tools to try and help me to reduce any concern about it, because knowing that these things happen from time to time, I can try and respond.
So with the hot flushes, I might choose to wear, fabrics which breathe, more breathable. I might wear layers so I can take off a jacket. I might wear my hair differently. If I'm really struggling, I might pull it up off the back of my neck. There might be different things that I do in terms of what I choose to wear.
I'd have a, fan handy or even just, um... I haven't got one. Oh, yes, I do. even just a
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: fan [00:26:00] to, to keep me going. Um, water is also useful. So I always say to people if, if it's happening to you and you're in the middle of a meeting or presenting, just take a pause. a sip of cold water, a breath.
There's nothing strange about doing that. Grab your thoughts and continue. and likewise with the brain fog, you might wanna do is, is have some notes with the key points that you wanna talk about or, have some palm cards. I tend to use palm cards when I do
Sonya: Mm-hmm.
Karen Stein: I rarely look at them, but I know they're there, so if something was to happen, I would own it and just use my palm card, which would help me get back on track. So there's different types of things that you can do in support of yourself. but overthinking it is when it causes anxiety. So I think just a little bit of acceptance of what's in my control and what's outside of my control. How can I influence a better situation than, and how do I reduce my level of worry and anxiety, and how do I use a little bit of visualisation
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: So if [00:27:00] I visualize my presentation and I can see everyone and I notice in my visualisation this is happening for me, I can then plan what I might do in those moments with some, I guess reasonable amount of flexibility so that should it happen, it won't derail me. I would've already thought
Sonya: through, what
Karen Stein: if, then this. And that can also help reduce some of the worry
Sonya: I love those. there's actually so many practical, examples of tools that, and tips, uh, that you can use, so thank you so much for, for sharing that. So if I had to, uh, get you to say what's one or two, uh, self-coaching questions that you'd want every sort of midlife leader to really take with them, what would you say?
Karen Stein: I do, um, have a program called the Midlife Leadership Series, and so I am coaching not just women, but men
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: Um, I would ask them to, um, understand what is inside the virtual backpack that they carry. And what I mean by that is when they've reached midlife, each [00:28:00] day I'm hoping they'll strap on their virtual backpack, which will be full of a whole range of things that they can access day to day. By the time they get to midlife, if they open the backpack, what they'll notice is they have lots of experience, wisdom, knowledge, insights, great foresight. They
Sonya: Mm-hmm.
Karen Stein: you know, appreciate what's likely to happen more so than in their 20s. Their tolerance factor has changed, so they know what they'll be tolerant of and what they'll wanna let go. They probably know what their boundaries are and what their strengths are. I'd ask them to identify what in their backpack can be in support in that moment, and reach in and pull out what's going to assist you, because often by the time we get there, we forget what we're carrying, and it's just that reminder to help us,understand the worth that we're bringing.
Sonya: Yeah, I think they're such important reminders and, I've always loved your analogy around that because it just makes it so simple. Because having those at your fingertip will bring you back round you again to go, "Okay, actually I've got all this experience regardless what is [00:29:00] going on around the world."
So thank you for that. Okay, so you wouldn't have been on, the Style and Strategy podcast if I didn't, get to my famous three questions that I ask every guest that kinda comes on. And so the first one is, when it comes to style, as in your personal style, what is your go-to style signature or a piece that might represent your leadership brand, and why?
Karen Stein: That's a really interesting question. I would say my gray
hair
So, years ago when I became a coach, I was coloring my hair, and I used to enjoy having it colored. But I wanted to understand more about me, and I felt the best way for me to do that is to actually see who I am. What do I truly look like unfiltered?
So I stopped coloring my hair and grew it, you know, so now you can see it's quite gray all the way through.it was a conscious decision, it was intentional, but it helped me, understand who I was so that I could be at peace with [00:30:00] myself and grow into my best
better
self, and then help coach people to do the same.
Now, this is not an advert which asks people to stop coloring your hair, because everyone else, will feel differently about that, and I
Sonya: appreciate that
Karen Stein: In fact, in my mind's eye, I still see myself as a dark-haired woman, it's really confronting when I'm on a podcast and I see this gray-haired woman looking back at me, or even in the mirror, and I say, "Oh, that, that's me."
Or particularly in photographs where the light, you know, kind of
bounces
off the, the highlighted gray at the top, um, the natural highlights. So it's a bit of a mindset shift. But for me, I think it's just about growing into me and this stage of life and midlife and being comfortable with it, and therefore helping people be comfortable in the space that we create when we're coaching together, whether it's around midlife leadership issues or around perimenopause and menopause, and hoping that I can build a space for
them
feel that they can also grow.
Sonya: Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. I absolutely love it. [00:31:00] And, uh, I've got a, friend in the States.
She's done the same thing. She used to dye her hair blonde, and, uh, it's now this beautiful salt and pepper, and she looks incredible. She looks more like herself today versus the, photos that we saw of her, you know, five, 10 years ago before she had leaned into it.
So, I love that. so now the second question is, I know that you're an avid reader, and obviously an author yourself, so is there a book that you're reading right now, or one,
Karen Stein: I
Sonya: that's had the largest impact on your leadership journey?
Karen Stein: Well, I, I'll do a little bit of an advert. So I'm reading, I'm reading Sophie Bretag's book, The Kind Way: Life-Changing Metric for Leadership, Success, and the Human
Sonya: Oh.
Karen Stein: Um, it's such a beautiful book,
Sonya: Yeah
Karen Stein: it? It's just gorgeous, the colors. And it's a real reflection. There you can see Sophie. It's a real reflection of her and her colors. I met Sophie through the Expert Author [00:32:00] Community of which I'm a
member
And we learnt how to write books and, work through the challenges of book writing and publishing and promotion and so on. So we've become good friends. She had her book launch just last week in Sydney, which I attended, and it was, it was a lot of fun.
It was actually hosted by another good friend of mine, Anna Shepherd of the Bambudha Group and Project Good Boss. and having the two. And Anna's very much focused on kindness. And so having the two of them in the room together talking about this construct was fantastic. And Sophie's writing is lovely.
It's, I had the privilege of looking at an earlier draft of her manuscript, and seeing then the final draft is really, really
exciting to see
how advanced it, it is. It's a lovely book. So it's published by The Kind Press, and it's available, in all good bookstores and on Amazon and Booktopia.
Sonya: Kindness and leadership quotient, which is really interesting to look at. And it goes through, it's using the word kind, so K-I-N-D, and it, you can use it in both your professional and personal life in terms of this quotient of how you can bring more kindness into your own [00:33:00] leadership.
Love it. I will have to put it on the list. There's always a great book, uh, suggestion every time I ask that question. Okay, so then the final question is,
what do you do in the 10 minutes before a really important conversation?
Karen Stein: Ooh, don't know if I have a particular approach or methodology. I guess it depends on when we say important, if, is it good important or challenging important? 'Cause
Sonya: So do I.
Karen Stein: kinds of important. So if it's important, but it's, exciting and good, I'm probably just, you know, babbling and oozing excitement to go into that conversation and share and, and hope that they feel the same way. if it's important in a more structured way, where we actually have to make some hard calls and decisions, I guess I would probably just try and avoid other distractions. I would probably be rethinking the why, why this is important, so I can share the purpose or context with whoever I need to share it with. And then what would be even better if, you know, where do we need to move to if that's [00:34:00] what we're trying to do with this conversation? So distractions, just, you know, a little bit of breathing, steadying myself and I guess perspective taking because I think what tends to happen in the world is, is we make everything highly important and, probably give more importance to things than we need to.
So what happens then is our emotional state elevates, our anxiety can go along with it. We can become a little bit nervous, a bit worried. We can carry too many thoughts about it, find ourselves with automatic negative thoughts, dreaming, waking up, all of these things. I try and, reset my perspective and wonder, is it really, in the scheme of my whole life, in all of the years that I'm going to live, is this really so important that I do need to be that concerned about it?
Or is it more likely than not that we'll be able to resolve it? And, I think the older we get or the more midlife we get, um, we're not old yet, then I think our perspective helps us reframe to go, "Well, actually, think of all the things that have happened [00:35:00] in our lives and where we are today, and how many of them have hung around and ruined things for us or
anyone else
sense check it and regain that perspective in support of ourselves and in support of that conversation
Sonya: Thank you. I love that takeaway of just pulling back to perspective because I think, you know, how busy everybody is with juggling a multitude of balls and throwing that up in the air, that sometimes you're just running, and to be able to step back and just really gauge perspective, before you're going into any sort of conversation or anything more broadly, um, decision-making, whatever that might be, uh, is a really valuable, um, lesson, to take in.
So thank you very much for that, Karen. I,
Karen Stein: just
Sonya: wanna really thank you for your time today. I think we've had a really insightful, uh, conversation. So if anyone wants to get in contact, find out more about you, what's the best way to do that? And I'll pop all those details in the show [00:36:00] notes.
Karen Stein: Oh, thank you. I'm quite a big user of LinkedIn, so I encourage you to connect with me. you'll find a couple of newsletters there. One's Mad About Menopause, and the other one's the Midlife Leadership Series. You might enjoy reading those. But feel free, if you've got questions, to raise them with me, DM me or send me an email.
Um, my email details are also there, and you can also find some information about me at my website, which is karensteincoaching.com. So it's just my full name, coaching.com
Sonya: Amazing. Well, thank you again for your time, and I'll speak to you soon
Karen Stein: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it
Sonya: ā€‹
[00:37:00]
